============ The Ogre Digest, Feb 28th (Last: Feb 23rd) ============= ===== Numerous Ruminations From: "Gurskey, Robert J" ===== TAKE OFF EVERY GEV From: Michael Powers ===== Torpedos at GEVs From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Characteristics of BPC and Self-Healing Laminate From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Newbie Q: Color Schemes for Minis? From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Infantry Modelling/Painting Question and Idea From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Altitude in GEV From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Nature Of BPC Armor From: "Andrew Walters" ===== GEV "trees" = Useful Scenery From: "Andrew Walters" ===== GEV scenario From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Web Site Announcement From: Servitor@aol.com ===== OGRE Geek Code From: "Joseph Bloch" ===== Clarifications on Previous Comments, Recomments, "Golden Age" From: "Joseph Bloch" ===== Gumbo in the Gulf From: Wrazor@aol.com ===== What's Missing in GEV Maps From: "Matthew D. Goldman" From: Wrazor@aol.com ===== Disputed Crossing huh? From: Dave Morse ===== Mobile Howitzers From: "Nicholas Elsden" ===== Plastic Hovertrucks From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" ------------------------------ From: "Gurskey, Robert J" Subject: Numerous Ruminations This is a long message covering various recent topics and some ideas I've had about the OGREverse. Changing the SHVY defense to 5. Personally, I think this is a bad idea. The SHVY was built in response to the Ogre Mk I which has an attack strength of 4. With this change in defense factor, the Mk I attacks at 1-2 odds rather than the previous 1-1 odds. I feel that an Ogre should never have 1-2 odds. This leads into my second point. Just how big are the smaller Ogres? In Ogre minis and GURPS, it is stated that the Mk I is 50% larger than a Combine HVY tank. I assume that each dimension is increased by 50% with the mass of the Ogre being 3.375 times that of a HVY tank. If the mass only increase by 50% than the linear dimensions scale up 14% which makes a wimpy looking Mk I. Currently, just eyeballing the minis, the Paneuropean SHVY appears to be 2 Combine HVYs wide, 1.5 HVYs long and just slightly taller than a HVY tank. So an Mk I would appear to be the same length, narrower but taller than a SHVY. Of course the Ogre tower will certainly be taller than the SHVY. I think the Mk 1 would have the sloping fenders on the treads like the Paneuropean SHVY with AP weapons at each of the corners of the vehicle. The turret with the main battery must be slid forward to accommodate the tower. I think this would be an attractive Ogre. (I notice the Combine SHVY mini doesn't seem to have anything that resembles AP weapons. An omission?) As for the Mk II, that's a different ballgame because of the two secondaries. The Ogre still retains a turret for the main battery, but where do the secondaries go? Do they stick up in the air as with the Mk III and V or does the II have a two-level independent rotating turret? The main battery would be in the upper turret and the secondaries in the lower one. Of course, the Ogre tower would be taller than on the Mk I. Is the Mk II smaller than the front half of a Mk III? I really what some of these in order to play Operation Icepick with minis (An Icepick map in Battlefields 2 would be nice.). As a minis package, I think there should be 2 Mk Is and a Mk II for $19.95 or 3 Mk Is and 2 Mk IIs for $29.95. Actually whatever the mix, I would buy them. The Fencer secondaries look odd Of course they do. The Fencer is a Paneuropean design and there is no reason secondary guns should look like the Combine version. Speaking of secondaires, why are the barrels longer than for the main battery but they have a shorter range. In fact, the barrel is slightly shorter than for a HWZ but they have only half the range. Doesn't make sense. Also, I think the front half of the Fencer is a dandy looking vehicle in its own right. It is sleeker than the Paneuropean SHVY although the treads are much wider. Still, a very attractive design. The only problem I have is placing all four missile racks together. I cannot believe that destruction of a rack with its loaded missile would not cause damage to the nearby racks. I think they should be spread apart as in the four corners of a rectangle. This begs the question of how the missiles are stored internally so that they are available to any and all launchers. The geometry for two racks is simple and I have a good idea for three (racks at the vertices of an equilateral triangle and the missiles stored along the diagonals with the central crossing point being a rotating for transfer from one line to another [hard to describe without a picture]), but I cannot figure out a good arrangement for four launchers. Oops, I just realized that if the missiles aren't very long, the missiles could be stored below the racks and lifted into place for launch. Maybe I better read Ogre GURPs again to see if it says anything on the subject. Cruise Missiles and Combat Engineers. According to mini rules, a cruise missile can be shot down without causing it to explode. Also, combat engineers are capable of carrying and setting of a nuclear mine. Question, if combat engineers can get to a downed cruise missile, can they explode the warhead? Of course some kind of time delay would be necessary; maybe a short one if the engineers are riding a GEV-PC or hovertruck. I believe the cruise missile is much more powerful than the engineer's mine. In fact, why couldn't they remove the warhead and transport it to another part of the map for detonation against a structure or large bridge? Of course if the enemy fired upon the combat engineers while they were transporting the warehead, there is the risk of setting it off. Replacement of GEV river bridge with a dam. I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion of these rules mentioned awhile back. I like the idea but I believe the dam would limit mobility. In my limited experience, the roadway on the top of a dam is only two lanes, never four. I think only LGEVs, GEVs, LTs, HVYs, MSLs and possibly Ogre Mk Is can negotiate a two lane paved road. SHVYs and larger marks of Ogres are just too big. Of course, crossing the river is no problem for Ogres, but SHVYs, Missile crawlers, and MHWZ would be stranded. Maybe I better consult Ogre GURPs for dimensions of the vehicles. That's what happens when you write something without all your reference material handy. Errata for recent publications. - Ogre Book, Second Edition What is a 3-mm tank (pg ?)? I assume that should be a 3-man tank. - Battlefields For the scenario "A Bridge Too Near" I assume the forces southeast of the bridge are the DEFENDERs and not the ATTACKERs as stated in the rules. Otherwise, the Combat Engineers are caught between a rock and a hard place with no incentive to repair the bridge. Can the forces southeast of the river contain a HWZ or MHWZ. The scenario doesn't explicitly rule that out, just for the forces NE of the bridge. Future Mini products The miniature rules mention a Light Howitzer. Will we be seeing that? I notice on the cover of the Combine heavy armor company that the tanks have numbers and Combine symbols. One hopes decals are in the works, preferable in white (for dark painted vehicles) and black (for light colored ones). I would like multiple alphabets (for platoon designators) and about 10 sets of digits for the individual vehicles within the platoon. Ogre Mark Is and IIs! I see that the Fencer will be available with two different turrets. I guess that's how Steve is addressing the issue he raised awhile back. A Request I was recently in the hospital and my parents did a drastic clean-up of my condo. Unfortunately they threw away the "box" for the Deluxe Ogre game, before I had a chance to remove the Mark III record sheet on the back. I wonder if SJGames could post a copy of that record sheet on the website for download and printing by individuals. That way, if one was inclined, a person could replace the image of the Mk III with there own cybertank. My old Ral Partha Mk III is all white with gray treads and secondaries, a black main battery, tips of the missiles in yellow (may change that; not very visible), and the knob to the tower is dull brass. My new Mk III from Deluxe Ogre will be mostly white with all horizontal surfaces (above the treads) in bright red and all guns in brass. Ogre Bumper Sticker "I'll be with you momentarily" I have been collecting the various emails and collecting them into annual sets. The sets where getting smaller from 1997 to 1999, but with the mention of minis release in 2000, the amount of material increased. At the current rate, 2001 will be a record year. I hope this isn't too much. Robert Gurskey ----- [You can download ALL of the emails I've sent out on this list from my website and GURPS OGREs gives the Pikeman a mass twice that of the superheavy tank. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: TAKE OFF EVERY GEV The best Ogre name EVER... "ALL YOUR CP ARE BELONG TO US" -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ----- [What is this, a memefield? -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Torpedos at GEVs I would say torpedos would work fine against GEVs - they're easy to track by sound, and an explosion underneath them would finish them. Andrew ----- [...if you could build something that moves faster underwater than a hovercraft skimming along on top of the waves. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Characteristics of BPC and Self-Healing Laminate From the descriptions in GURPS Ogre (a must for background even if you don't roleplay), BPC is a little hard to work with. How do you repair a Mark V that's had all its guns shot away? Can you remold all the pieces around the hardpoint and then just pop in a new gun? Is it as strong afterward? Most Ogres get pretty chewed up, but the brain, drivetrain, and powerplant make recoverery worthwhile. Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Newbie Q: Color Schemes for Minis? The book says the Combine mostly used red with a white stripe and that's how I'm doing half my Combine forces. There were (will be?) units that used traditional unit colors or cammo with a red and white stripe for affiliation. I'm going to break the other half of mine into lances, squadrons, etc, and do blue and green with red stripes, and some white with a big red stripe. All the infantry will be red with white helmets. Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Infantry Modelling/Painting Question and Idea Question: I'm putting together some of my infantry in 1s and 2s to make change, since the bases are available seperately and cheaply (yay, SJG!). So I'm wondering - If I put one guy on a base, what do I fill the other two rectangular holes with? I'm using spackle. I'll let you know how it works out. If someone has a better idea, let me know. Idea: When putting together some of the 1s and 2s I'm going to fill some of the empty area on the base with debris or with another infantry unit with its base cut off, lying on the ground. Could be cool. Photos will be posted. Beneficent SJG has made infantry so cheap, I may make up some 0s! It would be neat to glue a baseless infantryman to the side of the CP, if the Scale weren't wrong. He'd be standing guard outside the door. Another thought: I'm going to put some figures on a different base to portray engineers. What should I use? A big washer? Andrew S+++ G+++ PO+++MK3++ CM++ ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Altitude in GEV We need topology. Its accounted for somewhat in Ogre Minis, but not in a way that would transfer to the boardgame. It needs to be quick - part of the magic of the system is its speed. It needs to have a minor impact on most fire (which is indirect and electronically controlled), but must block those lasers. It might give a range advantage - not because weapons go farther, but because detection would be easier. Units on hilltops would also be easier to target, unless their in trees. I kind of expect its coming. I hope and trust it will be good. ----- [I'd expect units firing from on top of hills would have LESS range, as it'd be easier to target their missiles in flight. And we've already seen a torus microgame. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Nature Of BPC Armor GURPS Ogre page 109 has about a half a page that goes into some detail on BPC. Being fibrous, it very slightly (*very* slightly) flexible, allowing it to spread force out over a large area. When it gives it tears, and the remains look like torn cloth. So while its not self-healing, its still very tough. I cannot recommend GURPS Ogre enough for background material. ----- [If it's fabric can you print on it? How about an OGRE wrapped in many many copies of the Egyptian book of the dead? -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: GEV "trees" = Useful Scenery Save your GEV trees! By which I mean the little strips that the fins and turret are attached to. I was assembling some Combine Infantry last night, ones and twos for "making change," and made a couple of interesting discoveries. If you superglue a GEV tree (after removing the GEV parts, of course) flat to an infantry base with the protrusions up, it makes a decent looking piece of high-tech debris, either a construction beam or chunk of a vehicle. You can also file/cut off the portion of the protrusions that stick off the main rectangle, glue the cut side down, and you get a low wall with buttresses. Coolest of all, if you take two of them and lean them up against each other with the protrusions dovetailing, you get a very cool looking barricade (put it in front of two guys standing side by side, that's the only way there's room). Of course, some might argue that making these micro-dioramas is inaccurate, because these infantry may be placed in clear terrain, and you don't want the mini to suggest that they have a defensive bonus. I would say 1) What are your infantry doing in clear terrain? Oh, you may be playing Ogre. But, 2) even in "clear" terrain there will be the occasional tree, bombed building, old wall, etc, and infantry will gravitate to these points. Doesn't give any bonus over what infantry already has, their intrinsic defense includes duck-and-cover. The other thing I did was remove the figures from one strip and make casualties. I cut off guns and the cables to the backpack, spread and flattened legs and arms, scraped a hole on the front of one suit, and glued them onto bases. The small weapon guys I put face up, the big-rifle (100mm HEAT) guy was face down. This looked pretty cool. Note that the base I removed the three figures from I bent to a ninety degree angle and glued to a base - the corner of an ex-building. I would not have thought you could do this with 15mm (or whatever they are) figures. I must say I think this bismuth stuff is much more forgiving than the lead figures I worked with years ago; doesn't seem to break as easily when you abuse it. I don't think I did a particularly good job, but if I did it passably, some of you can probably do it great. Just don't tell Steve: if we found a new feature they may want to up the price (ie Combine GEV=$1.90, but Combine GEV plus Infantry Barricade=$2.25") : ) I'm doing a whole web page on mini preparation, which will include pictures of the above. Andrew ------------------------------ From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: GEV scenario This is basic a modified version of the GEV Raid scenario. Let me know what you think of it. Dominique Sumner ----- [Hmmm.... HTML, that's what web browsers use isn't it? OK, I've got a scenario page, http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/scenario/index.html Send more! -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Web Site Announcement Okay everyone. After nearly two years of promises and procratinating, (drum roll) MY LONG DELAYED OGRE WEBSITE IS UP! No, really. It really is up! The URL is: http://hometown.aol.com/servitor/Ogreindex/ogrindex.htm Here's the hyperlinked version (if you can post it that way Henry)... http://hometown.aol.com/servitor/Ogreindex/ogrindex.htm I (now) realize the typeface is too small on most of the pages (I have an old-style monitor). I will correct that on the next upload. You will find lotsa stuff on my site, including the long promised pics of all the OGRE Macrotures by Sci-Fi-Supply. Please tell me what you think of the site. best, flunky ------------------------------ From: "Joseph Bloch" Subject: OGRE Geek Code > From: Michael Powers > PREFERRED GAME: indicate level of preference for rule sets with > '+++' to '---' > () = did not play Let's not forget a "would like to" code. I suggest > I would be S>OM Meaning, I currently play Shockwave-rules, but would like to play Ogre Miniatures rules. :-) ------------------------------ From: "Joseph Bloch" Subject: Clarifications on Previous Comments, Recomments, "Golden Age" > From: "Andrew Walters" > Perhaps '80-'81 > was the Silver Age of Ogre, but the 25th Anniversary (next year) will > be the Golden Age. Steve, has Keith told you my idea for an Ogre > LARP? I like the analogy, and concur; Ogre is about to hit its stride. But then again I think hex-and-counter wargaming as a whole reached its xenith with SPI-- I'm a crotchety old cuss. "SPI died for our sins!" But you can't just leave us with a driblet like that and not elaborate. An Ogre LARP? I just HAVE to see the rules for THAT! Joe Bloch ------------------------------ From: Wrazor@aol.com Subject: Gumbo in the Gulf I like this offering much better. There is hope for naval battles yet. One question, do all the marines have to start on the carrier, or would destroyers typically have 3 or 4 squads (in your view that is)? ----- [I was working from modern day techniques where the marines are segregated on their own ships, but we don't have to worry about naval overruns at the moment. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Matthew D. Goldman" Organization: Courts of Chaos Subject: What's Missing in GEV Maps > From: Joseph Shelby > > Maybe the miniatures rules cover this, I'm not sure (I don't have them, > and really can't afford to get into the minis habit). > > One thing that's missing most in the GEV terrain are rules (and hex styles > and therefore maps) covering the third dimension -- altitudes. > > It came to mind when looking at the Duluth map and considering what could > be done to make a map of an assault on Washington, DC (one always thinks > of fighting @ home, right? :) ). Minnesota is really flat. The hills are only a problem in the winter when they are covered by ice. Jump suited infantry wouldn't have any problems at all. > So, how 'bout we encourage Steve (by perhaps discussing alternatives and > optional rules amongst ourselves) to come up with a new suppliment or rules > that handle elevated terrain a bit more realistically...or maybe he's > already on that (he did hint at some more maps in his answer to the > battlefields review). Minnesota may be flat; however, in winter most of the swamps and lakes turn into roads. Matt ----- [Is the ice thick enough to support 60 ton tanks? -HJC] ----- From: Wrazor@aol.com Subject: What's missing in GEV maps You might also look here Joe, for one persons take on the issue: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/scenarios/badlands.html ------------------------------ From: Dave Morse Subject: Disputed Crossing huh? In Ogre Battlefields' scenerio "Disputed Crossing", I'm trying to figure out how to get across the river that "fast-moving, rocky, and steep-banked. It is impassible to GEVs ... Superheavies treat it like swamp". To get a decisive victory, the attacker has to get some armor across. How can that be done? I can think of 3 ways: 1) The lake on the west IS passable to GEVs. But that makes for an edge-of-world game. 2) Somehow the armor could push up the east side of the map (~20 hexes of enemy held terrain) without the defense remembering to blow the bridges there. Also has edge-of-world problems. 3) Take lots of superheavies and try one's luck in the river-swamp. Kinda constrains the attacker's options, unit-wise. What am I missing here? ----- [42 Platoons of Militia backed by 8 MHWZ to cover the crossing. Steve forgot to explicitly forbid Militia water movment. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Nicholas Elsden" Subject: Mobile Howitzers When I first read the GEV rules, I did not find a unit with a move of 1 hex/2 inches attractive, at least for the Ogre based games that we tend to play (despite a slight increase in defence factor). I found a similar comment on someone's website that I found through this discussion group; huge apologies for forgetting your name ! By comparison with late 20th century self propelled artillery, I came up with the following idea: that a Mobile Howitzer can move 2 hexes/4 inches, but ONLY if it does not fire in that bound. Normally, I would steer clear of a rule that requires the players to keep tabs on whether units have moved or not, as it tends to cause problems - but there are likely to be so few M-Hwz in a game that it should not cause any trouble. The positive side is that it gives the player(s) a simple decision, whether to shoot or move. This is much more credible for artillery, who will probably still have to haul large amounts of ammo etc,. around with them, even in the 21st century ... The only thing is ... I have never got around to trying this out ! Has anyone else tried a similar rule mechanism, or have any thoughts on the idea ? I may get to try it out myself soon, if only I can assemble my fellow Ogre players in one place for long enough. Nicholas Elsden ------------------------------ From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" Subject: Plastic Hovertrucks Good source for cheap (plastic) Hovertrucks: http://www.fortressfigures.com/ Pics at: http://www.geocities.com/andyskinner.geo/epic/fortress/APC.jpg Price/Codes EA003 20 Hover APCs$10.00 Given the number of Hovertrucks that appear in GURPS Ogre TO&Es, getting a pack is recommended for the completist like me ( who's busy doing an Ogre Recovery Vehicle conversion of some GW stuff) ------------------------------ Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.