From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 23 15:29:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27355 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:29:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA29704 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:11:40 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:11:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199807232011.PAA29704@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #872 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 872 In this digest: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Re: IN> Q2 Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens Re: IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens Re: IN> subscriptions IN> Free Remnantizing! IN> Reallllly Off-Topic Dribble...but funny IN> Character sheet idea Re: IN> Character sheet idea Re: IN> Character sheet idea Re: IN> Character sheet idea Re: IN> Character sheet idea Re: IN> Q2 Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) Re: IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds Re: IN> Reallllly Off-Topic Dribble...but funny IN> Marches mechanics Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> Impudite stuff Re: IN> Character sheet idea Re: IN> Impudite stuff Re: IN> Marches mechanics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:48:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) Is it just me? Or does anyone else read about Impudites and think Skekses from the Dark Crystal. "Mmmm....yessss....essence..." Maybe I need a nap. -Jayson - ---Walter Milliken wrote: > > > And there are a number of other sources of Essence. They can get it > >from other Celestials (well, it's not bloody likely), and from animals. > >Heck I can see impudites buying bunnies at the pet store, drugging them > >into a dreamless sleep, waiting two or three days, and siphoning them dry. > > I believe the IPG corrects this -- no animals. (During discussions of > the Impudite section of the IPG, there was the example of the Impudite > with the gerbil farm... only 1 Essence apiece, but they can only get one > back per day, anyway. So this got stomped on.) > > > ---Walter > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:32:04 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Q2 Hart, Joanna wrote: > > If renegades are immune to gaining dissonance from their previous superiors > after their hearts have broken, I presume that outcasts are as well? > > So the servitor of judgement who didn't have the heart to accuse its friend > of heresy, or the fire angel who let its cruel-target go, or the servitor of > the wind who was trapped by forces outside its control may become outcasts, > but won't necessarily _fall_ from that behaviour...? That would follow, yes. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:34:57 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) Sam Kington wrote: > > Related question: if a Kyrio is in a host or two, *and* manifests a > Celestial form, there's presumably less of it manifesting than if it was > entirely without a host. After all, a KoJ in a toaster could presumably > manifest a fairly large Kyrio Celestial Form, whereas a KoJ in a dog, a > cat and a skateboard has less to work with. So, when the KoJ gets into > Celestial Form, does it also have fewer Soul hits? > > Actually, if that's the case, then there's a fair chance that it can > lose all Celestial Forces from its Celestial Form, while still having > one or two in a host somewhere. So yet another way to go Remnant. It's not a matter of size, it's a matter of _ability_. It's incorrect to say that a certain number of Forces from the Kyrio are inhabiting a vessel. Better to say that a certain number of unallocated forces are necessary to inhabit a vessel. Regardless, the celestial forms are identical whether you have 3 spare forces or 9. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:45:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens Do you suppose there are rumors or speculations circulating among celestials that, if you get soul-killed, you reappear in the Higher Heavens, and so "go to heaven" like a human, only one octave higher up? Do demons fear such an ascent (since the welcome would probably not be warm)? Or do they have mirror-myths of descent into a deeper Hell? (Given that even most demons don't like most of Hell, would that be any better?) At least it is common celestial knowledge that the Higher Heavens exist. And this gives an opening for encounters with the likes of Raphael and Metatron (and, of course, Uriel) some day. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:23:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens > Do you suppose there are rumors or speculations circulating > among celestials that, if you get soul-killed, you reappear > in the Higher Heavens, and so "go to heaven" like a human, > only one octave higher up? > > Do demons fear such an ascent (since the welcome would > probably not be warm)? Or do they have mirror-myths of > descent into a deeper Hell? (Given that even most demons > don't like most of Hell, would that be any better?) I think the way that I have always done it, and I'm fairly sure carried right on over to Fiat, is that the demonic hordes are nihilists. They believe in complete obliteration of the soul and the nothingness that exists after death. They're cut out of Heaven and the Upper Heavens, so that when they die they simply die. Their little private Symphonies come to a grinding halt. On the other hand, Angels tend to believe that, when they die, they either rejoin the Symphony and become one with the universe or they die and join God. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:30:33 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> subscriptions Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > The disadvantages are that it's slower to download. Other than that, I can't think of other disadvantages. < Certain ISP only let you have 100 messages in your box at a timne then bounce the rest. Mine does this So I'm on the Digest. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:50:09 -0500 From: Martin Leuschen Subject: IN> Free Remnantizing! Just a minor aside - I see many posts implying that a Sed/Kyrio has to be "Lucky" to become a Remnant. If I may postulate the opposite, I think that most Celestials consider being "Remnantized" as a Fate far *worse* than death. If Kyrios and Sheds didn't go that way, they'd be considered the lucky ones by many. Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:07:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Gastonguay Subject: IN> Reallllly Off-Topic Dribble...but funny Some friends and I were discussing, if a saint can fall, someone joked that he was "disgraced", after the initial laughing, we thought hmmm...doesn't it follow that a banker can be disinterested, and a blackjack dealer can be discarded? Continuing with that theme: cabinet member disappointed "Cannabis Club" owner disjointed cashier distilled chemist dissolutioned C.P.A. discounted cremated person discerned detective dissolved dry cleaner disdained editor dispelled electrician discharged geologist dismantled glutten disgorged Hamlet disdained hero discouraged inventor disingenuous Iranian immigrant dispersion jockey displaced lawyer distorted magician disillusioned map maker disoriented Marine drill sarge disgruntled marriage counselor disavowed mathematician disproven mathematician (2) disintegrated medium dispirited meteorologist disgusted mixologist disbarred model disposed mountain climber disinclined movie star discredited mugger dispersed mute disallowed nudist discovered nymphomaniac disguised Olympic skater disfigured perfume maker dissented person cured of Tourette's Syndrome discussed Pete Rose distributed porn star dismounted proctologist disemboweled professional mover dislocated prospector disclaimed residential developer distracted rock musician disbanded Rodney Dangerfield disrespected saint disgraced seamstress dispatched singer discord steel worker distempered Supreme Court Justice disrobed thespian displayed union leader dismembered virologist disinfected warlock disenchanted whorehouse madam dismissed :) Adam _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:12:05 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: IN> Character sheet idea Forgive me if this has been brought up before, but wouldn't it be neat to have a PDF character sheet per choir/band and incorporate the new symbols onto it? Plus you could go ahead and print all the choir/ band specific stuff right on the sheet so that you don't have to do it by hand. Anyone already done something like this? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 16:44 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Character sheet idea >Forgive me if this has been brought up before, >but wouldn't it be neat to have a PDF character sheet >per choir/band and incorporate the new symbols onto >it? Plus you could go ahead and print all the choir/ >band specific stuff right on the sheet so that you >don't have to do it by hand. Anyone already done >something like this? I'd rather have a Java applet that did all that and more. Multiple copies of the sheet take up a bunch of room. Wouldn't be very hard to do, though.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:11:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Character sheet idea > I'd rather have a Java applet that did all that and more. Multiple > copies of the sheet take up a bunch of room. Wouldn't be very hard to > do, though.... > *Em writes down some notes, goes 'hrm', and wanders off into the sunset.* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:20:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Character sheet idea In addition to what I've already done, the new sheets are designed as two sided character sheets, with band/choir attunements, resonance tables, enhanced use of resonances, etc... My current design breaks from the traditional layout, I like it better. Once I'm done, (and also done overhauling my website) I'll post it to the list. -Jayson - ---Walter Milliken wrote: > > >Forgive me if this has been brought up before, > >but wouldn't it be neat to have a PDF character sheet > >per choir/band and incorporate the new symbols onto > >it? Plus you could go ahead and print all the choir/ > >band specific stuff right on the sheet so that you > >don't have to do it by hand. Anyone already done > >something like this? > > I'd rather have a Java applet that did all that and more. Multiple > copies of the sheet take up a bunch of room. Wouldn't be very hard to > do, though.... > > > ---Walter > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Character sheet idea I've done it, I'm still working on it. For a preliminary look at what's going on, my site is http://www.geocities.com/Area51/6475/ I've got the sheets for the Angels up, the Demons are being worked on, slated for completion at the end of this week. I've also sheets for Soldiers (of each side), Saints, and working on Sorcerers. The trick is, I'm also working on a second version of the character sheet, which is a move away from what SJGames has done with it. If I get pestered with enough mail though, I may concede to go ahead with the current design. -Jayson - ---John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > Forgive me if this has been brought up before, > but wouldn't it be neat to have a PDF character sheet > per choir/band and incorporate the new symbols onto > it? Plus you could go ahead and print all the choir/ > band specific stuff right on the sheet so that you > don't have to do it by hand. Anyone already done > something like this? > > -- > ___________________________________________________ > / \ > | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | > | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | > | | > | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | > | -Chief Justice Marshall | > \___________________________________________________/ > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:32:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Q2 At 1:48 PM +0100 7/22/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >If renegades are immune to gaining dissonance from their previous superiors >after their hearts have broken, I presume that outcasts are as well? Yup. (in my model, definitely) >So the servitor of judgement who didn't have the heart to accuse its friend >of heresy, or the fire angel who let its cruel-target go, or the servitor of >the wind who was trapped by forces outside its control may become outcasts, >but won't necessarily _fall_ from that behaviour...? Not necessarily, no, by that model. But if they're Outcast, it only takes some bad choices... (And any angel can probably *choose* to Fall.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:41:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios in Celestial combat, remnants etc. (was: some mishmash) At 5:07 PM +0100 7/22/98, Sam Kington wrote: >Related question: if a Kyrio is in a host or two, *and* manifests a >Celestial form, there's presumably less of it manifesting than if it was >entirely without a host. After all, a KoJ in a toaster could presumably >manifest a fairly large Kyrio Celestial Form, whereas a KoJ in a dog, a >cat and a skateboard has less to work with. So, when the KoJ gets into >Celestial Form, does it also have fewer Soul hits? The way I would play it, no. Its celestial form is "smaller," but all of it is there to be harmed... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:52:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Death & the Higher Heavens At 1:45 PM -0500 7/22/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Do you suppose there are rumors or speculations circulating >among celestials that, if you get soul-killed, you reappear >in the Higher Heavens, and so "go to heaven" like a human, >only one octave higher up? In Fiat, Hitherby has, I believe, postulated this notion. Either during the game, or during some out of game chatter. I have swiped this concept into my own head as something that some angels (and demons?) may believe. Another notion is that God is outside of time, outside of the Symphony. Therefore, It can reach into the threads of the Symphony and draw out the notes that designated any soul, and cause that soul to exist again, at any time. But It will not do this until the Rebellion is settled, or until the end of time, or some other undefined event. But at that date, It will look and see who is worthy, which celestials achieved *their* destinies, and It will bring back even the least demonling, so long as that demonling was as Good as it could have been. IOW, I like those rumors, yes I do. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:28:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds At 8:25 AM -0400 7/22/98, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >"Hell has its share of Fallen Angels. There are Fallen Mercurians, Fallen >Cherubim, Fallen Kyriotates, Fallen Seraphim and Ofanim. There's probably a >Fallen Bright Lilim or two hanging around somewhere. There aren't any >Fallen Malakim, of course. Malakim, like Habbalah, don't fall. But what >about Elohim? Where are all the Fallen Elohim?" "Elohim do not Fall either. They are the weak, pupal stage of the Habbalite butterfly. They are just unborn Habbalah, who do not yet know the truth. Why are they made that way? Because God wants only the strongest to become Habbalah, only the ones who can *accept* the truth, and know that there is no justice in the universe that is not dealt out by the strong, scarred hands of the Punishers." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:26:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) At 9:04 PM -0400 7/21/98, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: [on Impudites] > And there are a number of other sources of Essence. They can get it >from other Celestials (well, it's not bloody likely), and from animals. Not animals. That got changed explicitly in the IPG. (p. 63) Because the idea of an Impudite with a Reli-aquarium full of happy contented 1-essence per day fish was just *SICK*. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:54:15 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Messing with Habbalite Minds >>>"Hell has its share of Fallen Angels. There are Fallen Mercurians, Fallen Cherubim, Fallen Kyriotates, Fallen Seraphim and Ofanim. There's probably a Fallen Bright Lilim or two hanging around somewhere. There aren't any Fallen Malakim, of course. Malakim, like Habbalah, don't fall. But what about Elohim? Where are all the Fallen Elohim?"<<< "We do not Fall," replied the Habbalite with a haughty tone and a dangerously narrow stare. "We _descend_." "There is a difference. Other angels, when their eyes are opened to the eternal exercise in futility that is serving Heaven, despair. Their pitiful minds cannot bear the truth that is suddenly laid before them, when all their 'Divine' delusions are stripped away and the raw ugliness of reality is thrust into their simpering faces. Their fragile little egos crack, and they plummet to Hell, broken....that's why demons are so messed up, you know. They are still nursing wounds inflicted in Heaven." "Why do Elohim handle the revelation of their true selves better? That I do not know, exactly, but I suspect that with their grasp on 'objective' reality, imperfect though it may be, on a certain level they know from the beginning that they are fooling themselves. In that way, they are better attuned to the truth than those preening self-deceivers, the Seraphim. When an Elohite's veneer of divinity is peeled away and the ugliness of his soul is exposed, it is an unpleasant experience, to be sure....but he adjusts. And having known what he really was all along, he finds it easier to _choose_ to make the descent to Hell, which is where God intended him to be all along." "So yes, we are _former_ Elohim, but we are not _Fallen_ Elohim." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:31:45 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Reallllly Off-Topic Dribble...but funny Adam Gastonguay wrote: > Some friends and I were discussing, if a saint can fall, someone joked > that he was > "disgraced", after the initial laughing, we thought hmmm...doesn't it > follow that a banker can be disinterested, and a blackjack dealer can > be discarded? > > Continuing with that theme: > [snip] > magician disillusioned Don't forget disenchanted *g* [more snippage] tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:55:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: IN> Marches mechanics Hello list, I just want to clarify some points about operating in the Marches just to get everything straight in my head. These are my suppositions: Random Celestial in the Marches: They can tool around the Marches, wander to Blandine's side, Beleth's side, whatever, and they can see human dreamscapes, maybe even look inside, but can't _do_ anything to them without special abilities, right? Okay, random Celestial with Dream Walking. So they can go into someone's dreamscape if they've met them before. Here's where I get a little confused. Does the phrase "entering the Marches through the mind of a human dreamer" mean that the Celestial uses Dream Walking, falls asleep, and appears in the Marches in the human's dreamscape? Or does the Celestial instead fall asleep, appear in the Marches somewhere, find the target's dreamscape (?), and then use the attunement to enter? What about this bonus for physically touching? I assume that means in the Corporeal plane, so does the Celestial have to fall asleep while touching the human? Okay, Songs of Dream. Answering the above will I guess answer any questions about the Corporeal. Does the Etheral version necessitate the performer being in the target's dreamscape for the song to be useful? It's not specifically mentioned as it is in the Celestial version, so if not, does the performer even have to be asleep? In the Celestial version, it says the performer must already be in the target's dreamscape, so am I correct in assuming the Celestial Song of Dreams does NOT convey the ability to enter dreamscapes? Basically, I'm trying to work out how different scenarios unfold of Celestials attempting to futz with the dreams of humans. a) Random Celestial decides to fall asleep while on the Corporeal plane. Falls asleep, vessel sleeps, consciousness enters the Marches. Great. Wanders the Marches, encounters a dreamscape. How does he know whose dreamscape it is (i.e., how can he know if Dream Walking will help him if he doesn't know if he's met the dreamer before or not)? b) Random Celestial meets Random Human. He thinks "Gee, I'd like to futz with RH's dreams." RH goes to sleep. How does RC go about entering RH's dreamscape? Maybe I should reread The Marches. :) Thanks for any help, - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:42:46 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) On Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 09:30:24AM +0200, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > Doesn't work for me. It's not like Imps can't live without humans - the > comparison to food doesn't really work. It's weird that an Imp can't even > let his pals kill someone who really needs killing (according to the > demons, of course). They can let them do it, so long as they can't stop it. If the demon planning to kill the human is trivially able to prevent the Impudite interfering, then the Impudite doesn't have to interfere, as it would do no good. (This gives Impudites an active incentive _not_ to be good at combat.) And I'd assume that chains of command also take care of the problem. Does this also mean that the Imp will get angry at his > demonic colleagues if they kill humans, since it's his nature to try and > stop it? Sure, but he doesn't have to _show_ his anger. Will he get pangs of angst because he didn't succeed in saving > that tasty morsel? One assumes so. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:55:29 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Acting Dissonant -- Why celestials don't On Thu, Jul 16, 1998 at 03:36:46AM -0400, David Edelstein wrote: Acting violent is _painful_ for a > Mercurian, just as telling a lie is _painful_ for Seraphim...Seraphim don't > go around thinking about ways they can circumvent their pesky dissonance > conditions. (If they do, they're definitely on their way to Falling.) This isn't entirely true, and I'd assume almost universally untrue in the case of Seraphim of the Wind. On the grounds that gaining a connection to the Symphony as strong as an attunement must alter your way of thinking, it seems logical to me that they enjoy telling the truth in such a way that people with less mental flexibility will misinterpret it. At the same time, because they're better at doing this sort of stuff than other Seraphim, I'd assume that they're less likely to lie under pressure. This may be counterbalanced by the fact that as Windies, they're more likely to come under pressure. The reactions of other Seraphim to this sort of behaviour intrigue me. One imagines that they don't find it amusing, but the Windies would be quick to point out that saying "I'm called Mr. X", rather than giving their true angelic name is exactly the same thing, while the other Seraphim might deny that it's _exactly_ the same thing. Arguments between Seraphim are fun, because unless they're about something concrete with a straight yes/no answer, they're likely to be interminable. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:38:52 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Impudites and Mercurians (Re: Word-Bound Servitors of David) On Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 08:34:44PM +0100, Jo Hart wrote: > > But to deliberately destroy a source of that wonderful, > >fantastic, habitual Essence... > > > >Ow. Dissonance. > > > They can get essence from celestials too... (theoretically, at least) > In theory. In practice, working against a 7-Force demon, they're likely at a -5 penalty to start off with, one which isn't likely to be offset by anything. Impudites of Lust and Factions could probably pull it off, but the others? Even imps and damned souls aren't a good recourse. Too much of their Essence capacity works against the Impudite resonance, (one imagines they don't have many Corporeal Forces), and there are consequences to doing this kind of messing with your Prince's (or another Prince's) possessions. On Earth, this doesn't apply, as most of the humans you meet aren't anyone's possession, so you're free to take them for yourself. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:12:11 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 12:21:12AM +0100, Roland Ward wrote: > > Communism - in it's pure sense a movement that was spawned out of the > repression of Joe Bloggs by the greedy millionaire shareholders, and the > corrupt state. These were very real things in the turn of the century. Which turn of the century? > Russia, where the first real communist revolution took place was > particularly bad - at home workers suffered appalling conditions as > soldiers were sent off too inglorious death because of some petty > aristocratic sqabbling. For a while it worked, until communism became > dictatorship (this happens in other forms of government). That would be...around about 1918. Let's not forget that the Bolsheviks overthrew a republic, not a monarchy. And my point about Communism is that part of its tenets is violent, dialectical change. This is not a feature of all Socialist thinking (in particular, Fabian Socialism was predicated on the idea of avoiding revolution), but it was propounded by Marx. An analogue might be that Fascism, and, to a lesser extent, Mercantilism, promote violence, but that Capitalism is (theoretically) violence-neutral. > I would say that communism was a good idea that was subverted by a few > corruptors of Malphas. > Malphas corrupts everything. He's very good at it. > Islam - One thing that a lot of people today don't pick up on (esp those > who are U.S. based - maybe that's unfair sorry!) is HOW powerful the > 13-14th century Catholic chruch was - this was a superpower - they could > (and did) get rid of Kings & aristocrats, they owned vast amounts of > land etc. Maybe you should have set those dates back a century or so. In the 14th century, France imposed a French Pope on the College of Cardinals by force and moved the Papacy to Avignon. One day they told everyone in Europe to go and butcher a whole > load of (until then) pretty peaceful lot of arabs in the name of God. It should be noted that many of these Arabs were ruled by Turks who were not peaceful. > today. If you want to blame anyone for the way the forces of Islam work > today, blame Uriel and his bloody crusade! > Uriel was already gone. I personally would prefer to blame the people who subverted the idea of the "Pax Dei" (ie peace between Christians) by saying it could be achieved by making war on non-Christians. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:02:33 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Impudite stuff >> Will he get pangs of angst because he didn't succeed in saving >> that tasty morsel? > One assumes so. I kind of doubt it myself, not for any random human. Maybe if it was someone the impudite had actually charmed or interacted with or (more likely) had plans for. I think its more likely to sulk and begin making demonic-style excuses to itself about how that mortal was an annoying git and no great loss and I never liked him anyway, then go off and try to find someone more suitable to string along. I imagine them to be very fickle, in general. It might exert itself in order to make friends with someone it takes a shine to, but as soon as the impudite is bored or has got what it wanted, that 'friend' is out of the door. Every circle of friends has its impudite-elements; people who always seem to take more than they give from their friendships. It never seems to be their turn to buy rounds and they are very good at scrounging and getting other people to pay their share of meals or holidays, and they are sufficiently good company that people will do it willingly. They're the ones who spend all their time fishing for compliments but never seem to give any in return (unless they want something); they always want you to listen to _their_ problems but never seem to be around when you want someone to listen to yours.. in short, they are extremely draining ;) Essence draining is just a part of that. They're fallen mercurians; they think that mortals are there to be their friends, and friends are there to be used. There is still enough of the pure-nature left amongst the dregs that even an impudite has an instinct that says you don't kill your 'friends.' >> They can get essence from celestials too... (theoretically, at least) >> >In theory. In practice, working against a 7-Force demon, they're likely at >a -5 penalty to start off with, one which isn't likely to be offset by >anything. *grin* Charm the celestial and then just ask it nicely, pointing out how grateful you will be and how much you like it! I mean, if you can't charm a balseraph into convincing itself that this is a good idea then What Are You Like??? ;) Alternatively for earth-work, persuade your superior to assign you a 3-force familiar or two and use those as reliquaries; you can always bully or charm them into coughing up essence for you and it's much more likely to work than trying to use that resonance. jo http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~ jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:34:46 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Character sheet idea Jayson Howell wrote: > > I've done it, I'm still working on it. > > For a preliminary look at what's going on, my site is > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/6475/ > > I've got the sheets for the Angels up, the Demons are being worked on, > slated for completion at the end of this week. I've also sheets for > Soldiers (of each side), Saints, and working on Sorcerers. Pretty cool! One nit, Seraphim should be listed as Seraph on the page of character sheet links. Plus, the image for the generic infernal sheet should probably be an upside-down cross for consistency. Now if you could just add the pre-determined choir/band/etc stuff, they would be nearly perfect. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:40:18 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Impudite stuff Hart, Joanna wrote: > Every circle of friends has its impudite-elements; people who always seem to > take more than they give from their friendships. It never seems to be their > turn to buy rounds and they are very good at scrounging and getting other > people to pay their share of meals or holidays, and they are sufficiently > good company that people will do it willingly. They're the ones who spend > all their time fishing for compliments but never seem to give any in return > (unless they want something); they always want you to listen to _their_ > problems but never seem to be around when you want someone to listen to > yours.. in short, they are extremely draining ;) Essence draining is just a > part of that. God, you just described a former girlfriend. Maybe she was a demon? Naaaaaah, demons have more self-respect than that. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 15:52 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Marches mechanics >Random Celestial in the Marches: They can tool around the Marches, wander >to Blandine's side, Beleth's side, whatever, and they can see human >dreamscapes, maybe even look inside, but can't _do_ anything to them >without special abilities, right? Sounds right to me. >Okay, random Celestial with Dream Walking. So they can go into someone's >dreamscape if they've met them before. Here's where I get a little >confused. Does the phrase "entering the Marches through the mind of a >human dreamer" mean that the Celestial uses Dream Walking, falls asleep, >and appears in the Marches in the human's dreamscape? Or does the >Celestial instead fall asleep, appear in the Marches somewhere, find the >target's dreamscape (?), and then use the attunement to enter? What about >this bonus for physically touching? I assume that means in the Corporeal >plane, so does the Celestial have to fall asleep while touching the human? It and the Corporeal Song of Dreams are essentially the same. I've been assuming this means the celestial is using the attunement from the corporeal realm, on the human, to get to the Marches. So it should be the first of your two interpretations. The celestial with this attunement (or Song) can also go to the Marches on their own and use it to enter any dreamscape, as I interpret it. >Okay, Songs of Dream. Answering the above will I guess answer any >questions about the Corporeal. Does the Etheral version necessitate the >performer being in the target's dreamscape for the song to be useful? >It's not specifically mentioned as it is in the Celestial version, so if >not, does the performer even have to be asleep? Don't have the Song here, and don't recall it well enough to answer, though it sounds like it may not be required. > In the Celestial version, >it says the performer must already be in the target's dreamscape, so am I >correct in assuming the Celestial Song of Dreams does NOT convey the >ability to enter dreamscapes? I think that's right. >Basically, I'm trying to work out how different scenarios unfold of >Celestials attempting to futz with the dreams of humans. > >a) Random Celestial decides to fall asleep while on the Corporeal plane. >Falls asleep, vessel sleeps, consciousness enters the Marches. Great. >Wanders the Marches, encounters a dreamscape. How does he know whose >dreamscape it is (i.e., how can he know if Dream Walking will help him if >he doesn't know if he's met the dreamer before or not)? You can see into a dreamscape, and it should usually be pretty quickly obvious who the main character in it is. The attunement might also convey the ability to recognize the dreamscape's owner, if known. >b) Random Celestial meets Random Human. He thinks "Gee, I'd like to futz >with RH's dreams." RH goes to sleep. How does RC go about entering RH's >dreamscape? Use Dream Walking or Corp Dreams, if I remember right. >Maybe I should reread The Marches. :) It may only confuse you more -- it's one of the less-coherent books.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #872 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.