From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Tue Sep 30 18:02:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25514 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:02:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA25303 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:31:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:31:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199709302231.RAA25303@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #369 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 369 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Lilith's catch Re: IN> What good are tethers? Re: IN>Chicago and Lilith and Marc Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Werewolves Re: IN> Music (was: More Prophecy stuff) Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted IN> doh! Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) IN> Baltimore IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Baltimore Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> More Prophecy stuff Re: IN> Baltimore Re: IN> Baltimore Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Fluff: (Re: IN> Angel of Housewives (Hopefully The Last)) Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas Re: IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:28:41 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted > However, I have noticed a trend wherein it is becoming fashinable on this > list to blast WW and its products. I would like to remind the list that > there are some of us who -do- like WW and its products. There are three things that annoy about WW (and I think this applies to many detractors): Their mechanics are weak (including the infamous 'second-edition-syndrome'), their attitude is holier-than-thou, and some of the players are angsty-loser-moron-nobodies (mind you, _I_ play their games... I'm not saying this about ALL their players!) This attitude was 'fashionable' elsewhere LONG before it came to this list. The similarities in scope between the two games invite comparisons so, inevitably, negative comparisons will come forth. > > Personally, I can't stand IN mechanics, so I've adapted the material to > Storyteller. I'm currently running said IN/WW game, and it's working > marvelously. Once I make sure all the glitches have been ironed out, > would anyone be interested if I posted my conversion rules? Any contributions you find helpful would be welcome! In Nomine is about story, not about dice... though it would be a shame to lose something as cool as the d666. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:33:30 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's catch On Sep 30, 1:20am, Calabim@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's catch > In a message dated 97-09-29 17:24:16 EDT, you write: > > << Lilith may have her minions sort souls into suitable batches and > then sell them off to the other demon-princes. In return for what? > Well, raw masses of Essence would be simplest, and no doubt are > always welcome, but I'm sure Lilith can be MUCH more inventive > than that. Tethers, unholy artifacts, *holy* artifacts, plain old > mortal monies and properties (useful in their way), the loan > or sale of particular servitors, special prisoners, and, of course, > services. Or (silly demon) you could just "owe her a favor"... Hmmmm... I imagine with each batch of souls that Lilim gets she offers them a a deal. "You belong to me which I personally find distasteful, but thems the breaks. You can either live comfortably in my service and give up Essence voluntarily, you can be broken down into sufficiently small parts to be useful, or I can trade you away to a less understanding Prince. What's your choice?" It might not be a _great_ afterlife to just sit around all day and be an Essence generator, but it sure beats the alternatives! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:42:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> What good are tethers? > > What purpose do tethers serve? I don't see any reason for their > > existence. Sure, they make it easier to go to Heaven or Hell, but the > > same can be done by assume Celestial form and ascending/descending. They > > make it easier to summon the Superior they're consecrated to by adding, > > what, a +2? Big deal. Celestials can work off dissonance at a tether, and > > that's about all the use I can find for them. Well, I was thinking about this all weekend. Yeah, I know, I have no life if I'm sitting around thinking about tethers instead of say, football. But, I came up with two conditions. Heavenly Tethers - Work just as advertised. They are an ethereal conduit between Heaven and Earth, and they mask all the noise from the traffic. You get the +3 to summon, and you can work off dissonance. All the stuff from the sourcebook. This keeps things nice and consistant for Angel PCs and some canon stuff. (What, there's canon?) The only thing I have added is that if you chuck a demon in one, the demon goes up like flashpaper to a match. The whole light of Heaven thing. So in that manner, they are useful. They are places of peace, happiness, rest, and a fortress from the madness outside. Masking disturbances makes them doubly useful. Infernal Tethers - This is where my brain does most of it's work on the off-hours anyways. I got to thinking this line of logic: "Well, okay. Every angel can use a heavenly tether. Even an angel of Eli can use a tether of Dominic on a really bad hair day. But demons have Demon Prince specific tethers, and they are best off using those of their own Prince, or else get spanked pretty hard." So okay, this can be explained by using just general rules and the like. But that's too easy. An easy out is not a fun out. So that's where the breakdown between the walls of Earth and Hell comes in. I started exploring the position of Hell in relation to the other realms (Earth/Marches/Heaven), and I placed Earth and Hell much nearer to each other then the others, seperated by a membrane, really. (I think of Death telling Dream... They are so afraid of my realm, while they enter your realm every night...) I don't have a really good explaination as to WHY yet, but maybe because both Earth and Hell are God-made realms, which in a weird twisted way try to mirror each other. Or - better yet - the demons are attempting, in their pursuits, to make Earth just like Hell, preparing it so they can enter when the time is right. An infernal tether is a rift between the two realms, where Hell makes it's presence known in a very real, Corporeal sense. It pushes its way into the world and manifests, sitting there and gobbling up souls and humans whole. It works as a two-way door. I had mentioned this before... you walk through the slums of Detroit and find yourself walking through the wasteland back streets of Hades. Some infernal tethers are stable (the Dungeon of Mistress Bianca is an opening between the city of Caro, Michigan and an BSDM Club in the highly-trafficed parts of Shal-Mari), to being unstable and mobile (a fight breaks out in the Nicuraguan jungle, and joining suddenly into the fray is a contingent of Djinn of Baal in their demonic forms, reaping and destroying humans with guns of Hell in combat) and close when their needs are done. There could even be tethers which are people - humans so evil that certain acts open the rift while the acts are being committed, such as the serial killer, when he gets his hands on the prey he has been stalking, might temporarily open the passage between that back alley and the plains of Abaddon. This makes two things possible: 1. Why demons don't cross-pollinate tethers. It would suck for an Impudite of Nybbas to find himself suddenly in Sheol without invitation. While it is probably fine for Princes who are Allied or Associated, Neutral and worse may get the demon in question suitably fried. 2. Why destroying demonic tethers and keeping others from establishing is such a good idea. Not only do they corrupt the area around them, but an open door from Earth to Hell, even sporadic, is not a cool thing. (Can you imagine, Malakim out fighting and carving up 'bad' people, and they cause so much human misery at one point that a tether to Gehenna opens?) Mechanic-wise, they probably work much like normal, with some perks, although I would like to point out that Angels and Soldiers of God can go through them, even if the converse is not true. Only Angels can go to heaven - anyone can go to Hell. People, including humans, can wander through them, but not everyone can wander through them two-way. If a human goes through a tether, it's trapped in Hell until it can find a way back. Yadda and yadda. So, that's what a good solid tether is for. Atmosphere. Yeah! :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:20:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN>Chicago and Lilith and Marc > The trouble I'm having is finding any Archangel (Besides Marc and >*maybe* Jean) with more than a passing interest in Las Vegas. Of course, >I'm intending it to be pretty much a Demon town, along with the big What kind of city would interest Archangels MORE than a Demon town? They might not have serious HOLDINGS there, but most of them would want to get in there and clean it up... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:36:22 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Casca wrote: I'm currently running said IN/WW game, and it's working > marvelously. Once I make sure all the glitches have been ironed out, > would anyone be interested if I posted my conversion rules? > Even if nobody wants it posted, I would like an email copy of the conversion, if you please? tom timberlake, WWStoryteller for WWtA, with occasional Faerie cameos tomtimb@ionet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:21:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Werewolves > Has anyone considered adding werewolves to the soldiers of In Nomine? I > would be interested in hearing people's opinions. By werewolf I mean those > cursed with lycanthropy as opposed to White Wolf's concept of 'defenders of > Gaia', but any opinions are welcome. > To keep the distinction between In Nomine and the World of Darkness clear, it would be best, I think, to make them individuals cursed by the forces of Hell. Keep them mean, brutal and violent, but not loyal and spiritual. Make them man-as-animal at its worst. One could easily imagine violent servants of Hell being "rewarded" with lycanthropy... Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:12:54 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> Music (was: More Prophecy stuff) lugaid@seanet.com wrote: > On 1997-09-30 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com > >Oooh - Danzig. Which reminds me - must find "Black Aria". Very > >good IN mood music. > absolutely... for the darker times of Hellish activity, you might > also want to look for Diamanda Galas' _Litanies of Satan_, an avant > garde reading of the Baudelaire poem... - ----snip---- Diamanda Galas' _Plagua Mass_ (recorded live from one of her concerts in NY, IIRC) is also nice for that. A pretty surreal album. > some other musical suggestions that are appropriate (from which it > will quickly become obvious that my tastes run to goth), band first > - album second: And some more additions from me (same form): Danzig - Any album of the five major ones (The same Danzig who made _Black Aria_, but much more 'metal' style); 'Ashes' on the latest album is perfect for Lucifer. My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost Nċid - _Nċid_. A Swedish group making ambient-ethno music. Very Blandine. Probably pretty hard to find outside Scandinavia. Bel Canto - A Norwegian group, also ambient-ethno. That's all for now. More when inspiration hits. Oh, yeah, and check out _Shizoid Creator_, by Clark Ashton Smith, on http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~boyd/ (IIRC). A whole new take on dualism. cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:53:54 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Casca wrote: > > Thanks for the vote of confidence. They'll be posted as soon as I make sure > there are no bugs hiding within (ran my first ST IN combat on > Sunday....found a LOT of things to tweak.) > > I swear, the way I tinker with game mechanics, you'd think I served > Vapula. ;) Funny, I would have thought Eli would be the obvious Superior... ();-} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:46:13 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted "There are three things that annoy about WW (and I think this applies to many detractors): Their mechanics are weak (including the infamous 'second-edition-syndrome')" Now, now. Personally, after all the discussion, erratta and FAQing around that's happened on this list, there have been enough changes to what's actually between the covers of an IN softcover that we've essentially made a Second Edition. That's what what White Wolf does. "...their attitude is holier-than-thou..." Technical foul. Mark Rein-8-Hagen is holier-than-thou. The other purpose of White Wolf second editions is to purge his taint. :) yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:44:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: IN> doh! According to lugaid@seanet.com: > 999 : Girlfriend of the Beast. > >You are just wrong, my friend... > > i can only try my humble best... the sickness is deep, but it feels so > *nice*... ;) 696 (or 969) The beast and his girlfriend in a threesome? Sorry, My turn to dodge thrown vegetables Dan Ozdowski - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Live-Action I would prefer not to see Rock-Paper-Scissors as the determinant for IN-LARP. I knew many of the original playtesters for the Vampire LARP (Back when the Camarilla {tm} was local to the Seattle area...), and the only reason they thought it was workable was because their scenarios were mostly political rather than combat oriented. I *like* the idea of a dragonbone type electronic die-roller. I've seen children's games with a die the size of the keychain mentioned above. Mark (who has been gaming since 1980, and feels old.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:30:26 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons (Lilith) > > Sorry. Is it just me or is the first character you make in Wraith > > always end up being yourself? > Actually, I don't think I ever got around to creating a character--if I couldn't be a liberated barghest, what did I care? [/sarcasm off] tom timberlake Uncle Wolf on Alt.Fan.Furry and Alt.Horror.Werewolf WereWolf the Apocalypse Storyteller Felix, dog Vesseled Cherub of Jordi in "The Eternal Dawn" PBEM [see a common theme forming?] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: IN> Baltimore I've been sketching up some Baltimore stuff.... When I'm done anybody want the source material? Any other Baltimorons out there want to throw some ideas my way?? I've got the stairs from _The Exorcist_ (where the demon portal was) as a low-key tether (oxymoron) of Nybbas. The National Aquarium could be for Jordi since they do sooooo much educational stuff there. He may be cooperating with Christopher to educate kids about marine life! DanOz - lives in Charlottesville, has to put up with Seanmike, but is really FROM Baltimore.... - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:38:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) I've been trying to get closer to 'how to say this' for about a week. The whole Malakim and Morality topics got the cogs in my brain turning. I started with a few presumptions - WHICH MAY BE WRONG - that I worked with. And a warning... the logic here is off. I'm having problems getting it dead on. On Lilim and Malakim 1. Malakim are demons. Thus, they cannot fall. The idea is that you cannot fall off the floor. This idea has been beaten to death in previous emails, along witht he rational, so if you don't subscribe to this, then don't go any farther. If you haven't heard it, I hoarde mail, and I have most of the argument archived. 2. The second is the specifications for "What are Lilim, exactly?" I haven't seen a conversation yet which really explores this except 'they are Demons', so I'm gonna take a wack at it. Here's some facts, though. a. Lilim are children, one way or another, of Lilith. b. No one else can make Lilim except Lilith. c. Lilith is a direct human creation of God analagous to Adam. d. Lilith's Word can be either Good or Evil. I had originally made Lilim a variation on humans, making them first generation Man like Cain and Abel. Then I changed my mind, and decided to make them the opposite/analog of Malakim. I worked it out that they are the children of a direct creation of God, and in never Falling, can be considered Divine. "But Lilim are greedy little love buckets! They start in Hell!" you say. Well, I keep the following in mind: a. Lilim have the choice of using their Geasa for good or evil. b. Lilim don't change form when they go "Bright", not in power, not in dissonance, not in Celestial manifestation. c. Lilim are not beholden at birth to a Demon Prince. d. Lilim never Fall either. They just stay Lilim. e. Anyone can go to hell and stay there. So what if.... Lilim are actually divine beings who live out their lives in Hell, like the Malakim being infernal living out their lives in heaven? Their power to Geas is no more evil then any other resonance power of any angel's, and the power only becomes evil when it is used in the process of bringing about evil ends. Much like the Malakim need to bathe themselves in blood is, in fact, evil, but good in the big picture. Weird weird weird.... A bit about Lilith - So what is Lilith? Well, she's a human made by God who walked out of the Garden of Eden of her own free will without waiting around to be tempted by Satan or eating from the Fruit of Knowledge. If one thinks about it, she's a Celestial Human, still more or less in her divine state, who didn't hang around to be cast out and forced into the trap of death and rebirth. She still has all of her powers given to her by God, and she passes a small subset of these along to her children. She's a "pure" human, which may in fact be on-par with a normal ArchAngel/Demon Prince, depending on what divine powers God felt to originally give his creation. (Fill in book of Angel Raziel and the Knowledge of God stuff here.) By divine, in this case, I don't mean "Heavenly". I mean, up to par with the rest of the crowd. There's a difference. (I imagine a few others who have broken the cycle, and wander around scouting out Hell and the Marches, like Leonardo diVinci or whatnot... who figured out that they were still part of the Symphony and figured out how to give themselves access to it, and just stopped dying.) On Good and Evil - So I have this analogy = Very bad Malakim, Discord-free. Very good Malakim. Very good Malakim are likely to be consumed by Discord like any other demon trying to go Renegade. Very bad Lilim. Very bad Lilim are likely to be consumed by Discord like any other angel Falling, from the whiplash of too harsh failed Geasa, to themselves and others. "Kill your wife," has a possibility of failing... Very good Lilim, Discord-free, from using Geasa to help people do what they really want to do, or internalizing their Geasa to become oaths. So what is going on? I'm not sure. It looks like a Band/Choir is in the wrong place. :) Lilim only can go up, and Malakim are already down. So there are these, when they get enough dissonance: Lilim changes -> Bright Lilim or Malakim Malakim changes -> Bright Malakim or Lilim (starts imposing it's Oaths on others as well as itself.) Change the bands/choir probably requires a little force reconstructive surgery. It's the oath thing that gets me - and the fact that a Lilim can make a promise, geas itself, and it HAS to follow it or get dissonance. So where do the Malakim come from? I don't know. Maybe Lilith plays both sides of the fence. It would permenantly solidify her power base - in Heaven and in Hell. - - Em, searching for a case of symmetry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:56:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted > Now, now. Personally, after all the discussion, erratta and FAQing around > that's happened on this list, there have been enough changes to what's > actually between the covers of an IN softcover that we've essentially made a > Second Edition. That's what what White Wolf does. This list doesn't define canon, however. There's been an awful lot of "Jauns=Valefor," fill-in-the-blank archangel is actually a demon (I think basically all of them have been described in this way by now), Gabriel is Jesus, Eli is Jesus, Yves is Jesus, the Demons are the good guys, Lucifer is running the unviverse, the Malakim are already fallen, the Elohites are already fallen, etc. talk on this list. And given all of that, yeah, you've rewritten the entire universe. However, that's not canon; it's creative people thinking about the game, not decreeing official revisions to the game, and it certainly doesn't make a second edition. It makes a lot of speculation on the part of enthusiasts. If SJG puts out a new version of IN which implements all of the speculations posted here, then, yeah, they're guilty of rewriting everything for a second edition. Myself, while I find some of the speculation fun, if and when I run an In Nomine game I will almost certainly use none of it; IMHO the In Nomine universe by itself is interesting enough "by the book" to not need to make everything something else. (Besides, the "x, whom you always knew was a y, is actually a z" device can make for a good surprise and plot twist, but it gets old if you overuse it. If you're gonna use it, pick one or two of your favorites to do it with, and do it well.) - -Rob === Rob Knop === rknop@crl.com ==== http://www.wco.com/~rknop === Amiga PGP information at http://www.wco.com/~rknop/amiga_pgp Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org/ ================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:55:57 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted "This list doesn't define canon, however. " Sometimes it does: there are plenty of 'official' decisions that have been handed down from Karakash and Moriah, and I'm sure that the Archangel will have some of her own, soon. "There's been an awful lot of [snip] talk on this list. And given all of that, yeah, you've rewritten the entire universe." That's not the sort of thing I mean, though. I'm talking about the clarifications and errata that have been hashed out here to be later posted on the web page. These decisions do 'change the game'...it's visible every time a new person joins the list and asks a question based on the text that we've already 'answered' or seen 'fixed.' It's these sorts of clarifications that 'make' for a WW second editionxand, often as not, they start on places just like this. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:58:36 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted "This list doesn't define canon, however. " Sometimes it does: there are plenty of 'official' decisions that have been handed down from Karakash and Moriah, and I'm sure that the Archangel will have some of her own, soon. "There's been an awful lot of [snip] talk on this list. And given all of that, yeah, you've rewritten the entire universe." That's not the sort of thing I mean, though. I'm talking about the clarifications and errata that have been hashed out here to be later posted on the web page. These decisions do 'change the game'...it's visible every time a new person joins the list and asks a question based on the text that we've already 'answered' or seen 'fixed.' It's these sorts of clarifications that 'make' for a WW second editionxand, often as not, they start on places just like this. yours, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:03:03 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore >I've got the stairs from _The Exorcist_ (where the demon portal >was) as a low-key tether (oxymoron) of Nybbas. The National >Aquarium could be for Jordi since they do sooooo much >educational stuff there. He may be cooperating with >Christopher to educate kids about marine life! Not a chance. Jordi -never- approves of the imprisonment of animals anywhere. Jordi doesn't give a damn about educating human children, except to provide 'object lessons' where he can. Jordi would be ecstatic if every human in existence just -vanished.- So I sincerely doubt he's helping anybody with anything about any aquarium or zoo. Redneck ("Hmmm... maybe if we penned up all the humans and let the animals gawk at them and pelt peanuts at them....") Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, tom timberlake wrote: > Casca wrote: > > > > I swear, the way I tinker with game mechanics, you'd think I served > > Vapula. ;) > > Funny, I would have thought Eli would be the obvious Superior... ();-} Nope. I do unholy things to game mechanics. F'rinstance: Instead of rolling a ten-sider for each dot (which can result in gobs of dice being tossed), it's been condensed to needing a max of 3 dice for ANY roll, which is really handy when I'm rolling for a mob of NPCs. This is how it works: One die is designated 'positive', the other 'negative'. Before the dice are rolled, the Attribute + Ability dots are added to give a base value. The dice are rolled, and the lowest -absolute value- is chosen, giving a range of +9 to -9. (If the numbers are the same, the die roll is considered zero.) This 'bonus' is then added to the base value, giving me a total. The difficulty number is then subtracted from the total; the remaining result is compared against a chart to determine level of success. (Difficulty numbers and success levels are beyond the scope of this post, and should be explained separately.) If the player feels that the total isn't enough, he may spent a Willpower point -- or, in this case, an Essence -- to roll on the Bonus die (remember the third die?). This bonus, which is always positive, is then added to the original score. Confused yet? ;) Those of you who are old warhorses of gaming will realize that this approach is similar to the TORG system. It is in part based upon it, though TORG was logarithmic and my system is not. In a way, it could be called 'TORG light'. The two-die system comes from Chameleon Eclectic's _Babylon Project_ game. And then there's the Drama Deck..... Trust me, it's Vapulan. If I worked for Eli my system would be unique and elegant. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:48:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted > That's not the sort of thing I mean, though. I'm talking about the > clarifications and errata that have been hashed out here to be later posted > on the web page. These decisions do 'change the game'...it's visible every > time a new person joins the list and asks a question based on the text that > we've already 'answered' or seen 'fixed.' Allright... but those changes aren't really that major. Hardly a whole different edition's worth of changes, it would seem to me. Sure, it's a hassle as the errata list grows, but it doesn't amount ot a recreation of the game. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:03:54 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> More Prophecy stuff On 1997-09-30 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >It's mentioned on the Internet Movie database. It gives a plot >synopsis, which basically is that Gabriel is released/escapes from >hell and goes after Mary again who is now having a baby (called you >guessed it, Jesus). The baby will a very pure/good soul, so if Gabe >could have the most evil soul, he'll get the good one. Christopher >Walken is in it again. Gregory Widen obviously isn't involved (or >at least didnt write it). As you can see, it's cringe time. darn... maybe it will yield up some bits, though, that can be used... does the database say who wrote the sequel? who directs? Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert I am a wind on the sea Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:56:52 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:03:03 -0500 (CDT), redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) wrote: >Jordi -never- approves of the imprisonment of animals anywhere. > >Jordi doesn't give a damn about educating human children, except to provide >'object lessons' where he can. > >Jordi would be ecstatic if every human in existence just -vanished.- > >So I sincerely doubt he's helping anybody with anything about any aquarium >or zoo. I don't agree with this view of Jordi. His dissonance condition is, "They gain dissonance if the value human life above animal life." (P. 124) So it's not that they hate humans, it's just that a human is no more (or less) important than a cat or a bear. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Hobbes Subject: Re: IN> Baltimore According to Redneck Gaijin: > > Jordi doesn't give a damn about educating human children, except to provide > 'object lessons' where he can. > > Jordi would be ecstatic if every human in existence just -vanished.- > > So I sincerely doubt he's helping anybody with anything about any aquarium > or zoo. This is pretty heavy handed and a bit drastic in my opinion. Humans have their space in God's plan just as the animals do - Jordi's problem is that he thinks humans are overstepping and taking over in a very bad way. What you suggest (in the process of giving me the wave-off) is that Jordi advocates the discontinuation of what certainly has to be a PIECE of God's symphony. Probably a necessary piece in some way. My example - an aquarium - is one of the few, best ways to educate people about marine concerns in general. The aquarium does a lot of "Save the Chesapeake Bay" work - a whole lot - and if that's not the work of Jordi - i.e. "Preserve this piece of nature you stupid bastards", then I don't know what is. Furthermore, one of the most expedient ways to repair any damage cause by human influences is THROUGH human influences. Dogs may be great but they don't have opposable thumbs so they aren't gonna help plant trees and stuff. Even if that is Novalis' arena :). Therefore Jordi most definitely "gives a damn about educating human children" if for no other reason than as a tool to help fix the general mess humans have created. I understand the "imprisoning of animals" line of thought, but I also understand sacrificing a pawn in a chess game. A few animals in an aquarium now, thousands saved later. _IF_ the aquarium accomplishes its purpose, and that's where Jordi uses his pull - to make sure his sacrifice is not in vain. Perhaps I have completely the wrong view of Jordi - I didn't picture him as THAT egocentric. Dan Ozdowski - would be flattered to think the National Aquarium was associated with an archangel. - -- Don't blame me, I voted for Sgarlata. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:53:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> just a thought At 9:01 PM +0000 9/29/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >That works for me...the need must be truely satisfied. If that can >> >be done in a dream, so much better. Needs such as "Get me out of >> >here" in the middle of a nightmare, would make great adventure seeds >> >- Lilim helping souls over to Blandine... >> >> True, though Beleth would be very annoyed... > >*Exactly*. A Bright Lilim might do it with more impunity, but a >regular Lilim doing it has so much more possibilities... "Renegades! Renegades! Curse you, Asmodeus, you promised you'd sprayed for these things last week!" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:07:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted At 11:50 PM -0400 9/29/97, Casca wrote: >> (So: I got rather tired of WW's angsty "can't fix the world" after >> a bit, and am quite happy with In Nomine, where at least pounding a >> demon is satisfying... ) > >I can understand this viewpoint, and respect it and its holder. (Well, I suppose that the local lot of WW gamers around didn't help. (I did like some of the Vampire background. And some of the Mage background. But all together... Over *my* tolerance. I'd probably like them more if I'd had more GURPS conversions in the bookshelf.) But then, I always turn the bright a little up, and adjust the contrast...) >Personally, I can't stand IN mechanics, so I've adapted the material to >Storyteller. I'm currently running said IN/WW game, and it's working >marvelously. Once I make sure all the glitches have been ironed out, >would anyone be interested if I posted my conversion rules? I don't know if there would be a copyright problem or not. If there isn't, then not only might they be posted, but I should find the time to update the INC and put them on there. (So, how *do* you get around the part where, if your skill is 10, and the difficulty is 10, the chance of critical failure is *exactly* the same as *any* chance of success? O;>) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:16:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fluff: (Re: IN> Angel of Housewives (Hopefully The Last)) Chris Eng and David Edelstein exchange sarcasm, winding down... >> And I am sure women everywhere are swooning at your extraordinary >>sensitivity. > >I hope so. That's why I role-play. So I can score with all the women. Sorry, I'm married. Can't score with the Line Editor. Have to use an adjective to modify "all" now... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:22:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas At 10:19 AM -0500 9/30/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Stacy Stroud wrote: > >Question: Are IN saints always *reborn* on the Corporeal Plane? >Do they ever just manifest, descending from the Celestial Plane >like angels do? If the GM wants them to, then yes. OTOH, I might as a GM then rule that they created disturbance like celestials... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:58:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: A thought - opinions wanted At 2:55 PM -0400 9/30/97, IQJason@aol.com wrote: >"This list doesn't define canon, however. " > >Sometimes it does: there are plenty of 'official' decisions that have been >handed down from Karakash and Moriah, and I'm sure that the Archangel will >have some of her own, soon. I already have one or two... Yes. (And I look forward to the official second edition, wherein I can sink my arms to the elbows in bloody bits of text and reorganize the whole thing. Think of the Michael picture, only female and with bits of text clinging to my forearms. You can keep the image shirtless if you want.) Hey, if the "put out the second edition" stuff worked for WW... Ahem. That was just me, not being a representitive of anybody but me. I don't set SJG policy, and my effect on IN policy is moderated by SJ, the Managing Editor, and various others. (But I've only seen the GURPS versions of White Wolf stuff. (And one GM who shifted his GURPS Horror campaign to the Storyteller system, just before the game died; you don't want to know what conversions *from* GURPS *to* Storyteller look like. ) So I don't mock WW for edition stuff. Just some of the places where I think the atmosphere gets either a bit thick or a bit rarified... After all, I did help with the "IOU and Toon meet the World of Darkness" DexCon tourney that Bob Schroeck ran... Count Chocula goes on trial for blowing the masquerade. His Malkavian defense says, "My Lord, this dude is cool. I rest my case!") (Malkies. I *like* Malkies...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing On 1997-09-30 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Let's imagine that Jesus is a Saint sent to earth to >help people, instruct and teach. Why not send back one of >the first souls to reach heaven, Abel? According to the >bible, he was a good man, and reverent. For a more fun >twist, what if _Cain_ had redeemed himself and was sent >back from heaven to help his fellow man? ;) hmm... those are some darn good thoughts... but i think i will make Him Adam, the first created man, come to make penance for his Original Sin, among other things... or maybe He is actually Adam Qadmon, that is to say, that Adam and Eve were reunited into the one being that they were originally... yeah, i think i'll use that... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert Every possibility exists somewhere as a Shadow of the real. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #369 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.